The Kr8tom Debate: Clearing the Confusion with KratomNinja- Jordan

Podcast Show Notes

Episode Title: Understanding Kratom: Myths, Facts, and Personal Journeys

Host: Bobbie Malatesta

Guest: Jordan Richard

Overview:
In this episode, Jordan Richard, a seasoned expert in the Kratom industry, shares his insights and personal journey with Kratom. The discussion delves into the complexities of Kratom use, its benefits, misconceptions, and the challenges faced by the industry.

Key Discussions:

1. Introduction to Kratom:
   • Jordan introduces himself and his background, including his past struggles with heroin addiction and how Kratom played a role in his recovery.
2. Misconceptions and Facts:
   • The episode addresses common misconceptions about Kratom, emphasizing the difference between Kratom and other substances like 7-hydroxy, which can cause respiratory depression.
   • Jordan discusses the importance of understanding that correlation does not imply causation, especially in cases labeled as Kratom-related deaths.
3. Kratom's Role in Addiction Recovery:
   • Jordan shares personal anecdotes and stories of others who have found Kratom to be a life-saving alternative to opioids.
4. Challenges in the Kratom Industry:
   • The episode highlights the challenges faced by the Kratom industry, including public perception and regulatory hurdles.
5. Resources and Advocacy:
   • Jordan recommends resources such as the American Kratom Association and Kratomanswers.org for reliable information.
   • He also mentions his book, "The Truth About Kratom: Life Saving Plant or Botanical Menace," as a comprehensive guide on the subject.
6. Personal Reflections and Future Directions:
   • The conversation concludes with Jordan reflecting on the future of Kratom and its potential to help others, emphasizing the need for proper education and advocacy.

Takeaways:

• Kratom can be a beneficial tool for those struggling with addiction, but it is crucial to approach it with informed caution.
• Misunderstandings and misinformation about Kratom are prevalent, and it's important to rely on credible sources for information.
• Advocacy and education are key to changing public perception and ensuring the safe use of Kratom.

Resources Mentioned:

• American Kratom Association
• Kratomanswers.org
• "The Truth About Kratom: Life Saving Plant or Botanical Menace" by Jordan Richard

Contact Information:

• Tiktok- Kr8tomninja

Listener Engagement:

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Transcript

Bobbie Malatesta: 0:29

My name is Jordan Richard. I've been in the creative industry, a really bad uh heroin addict. For parents did everything they they could to try to help me. Nothing worked. My mom even went back to school to become a drug and alcohol counselor to try to help me. Just went through a lot of stuff growing up that kids really shouldn't do. I had an eating disorder at a very young age, went through sexual abuse, all that stuff that led me to use drugs like late late later in life. I was actually gonna be a professional pool player, and that's like all I did. I traveled the country as a kid, but I always had this demon surrounding me. And pool is a very mental game, so I was looking for anything to align my myself and my own self around high school. And I was like, oh my gosh, I can talk to girls, I can play pool better, I can do everything that that I want. And you know, that just kept pr progressing. And then by the time I was 20, I was doing heroin and all that stuff. And it was funny because I was working with special needs kids full-time, but I'd be smoking with smoking heroin in the parking lot. But I would get like employee of the month. I was I was like really good at like hiding that stuff. And finally, there were two incidents that happened. I overdosed twice in one week, and then I got involved in a low speed chase with the cops. Like I used my blinker and all that kind of stuff. I never went over 35, but I was avoiding police as the gang task force unit. Finally got pulled over, eight guns on me, you know, my passengers reaching under the seat. Like I was okay, we're gonna get shot. So I'm in the back of the cop car, and I was just like praying, like, God, if you get me out of this, I'll change my life. Yeah. 45 minutes later, the cop just lets me go. He goes, Mr. Richard, this is your second chance after I led them on this, you know, low speed chase. And they they're like, I don't know, like you obeyed our commands. Here's your second chance, basically. And then I overdosed again. I didn't keep my promise. And I remember hearing my parents cry in the hospital, and I was like, okay, I have to change. I have to change. So I got home and Googled natural ways to beat addiction, and Kratom kept popping up. Went to the smoke shops, it did absolutely nothing for me. And then I was like, Well, I used to buy a bunch of stuff on Craigslist, so I'll go on Craigslist. And I looked on Craigslist and I saw a guy selling it up in the mountains, which was about an hour and a half from where I lived. And I drove up there, and that meeting changed my life forever. Within 45 minutes of me trying it, I was crying. I I like I knew this actually was gonna work for me. Fast forward, you know, 12 years later, that guy I met on Craigslist is is my business partner, the one that saved my life. He was a groomsman in my wedding, he's one of my best friends, and we opened our shop, I think like eight or nine years ago, a long time ago. And then I met no, like six years ago, and then I met my wife. She owned a one of the buildings right next to me. We got married and started having kids, and here I am now. So, but I I would consider myself like very involved within the Kratom world, definitely.

Jordan : 3:30

So it changed your life. So that's what led you on this journey. Was there so part in my ignorance because I didn't even know what Kratom was until I opened my store, and this the topic started coming up? And I was scared in the beginning. I didn't even want to sell kava, and kava's nothing compared to Kratom, at least now how I view it. So was 7-0 and the garbage and the stuff around, even when you started your journey.

Bobbie Malatesta: 3:58

No, the when I first started the journey, there was nothing but like pure pure leaf powder. Basically, there might have been a few like random extracts, but the 95% of what was being sold was just the pure powder. 7 hydroxy is a very, very new concept, I'd say within the last few years, but it's not what Kratom truly is. And so many people are getting introduced to Kratom that way, and people are calling it Kratom. Like 7 hydroxy is not Kratom, it's it's basically uh it's a synthetic opioid if we're gonna be honest. Like it's it's not what they're telling people that that it is. Like I I traveled the country, I talked to all the Kratom experts, you know, people from National Institute of Drug Abuse, the researchers from University of Florida, Dr. Chris McCurdy's been given millions of dollars by NIDA to study Kratom, and they're the ones that sound the alarm the most. Like they they've done rat studies where seven hydroxy can cause respiratory depression, but normal kratom can't. And that's a huge distinction. That that's one of the main reasons why I support Kratom as much as it does. Like, I don't people are always like, Oh, you traded one diction for for another. But I support stability, not just sobriety is so important because I tried total sobriety and it led me back to what I was doing over and over and over again. Like, people people don't seem to grasp that. But there's an advocate named Misty Brown who I think said it best that Kratom is an amazing way out of addiction, seven hydroxy can put you right back in addiction. And so many people that I get messages from TikTok, they're like, I just thought it was Kratom. I was doing amazing on Kratom for years, and the smoke shop just told me it was Kratom, but better. And now I lost my house, I lost my marriage. These aren't traits we typically associate with Kratom. Most people, Dr. Jack Henningfield from John Hopkins School of Medicine, he was saying that, you know, most people say I take Kratom because it gave me my life back instead of like seven hydroxy, where they're saying I'm getting everything taken away from me. Those are two very, very different things, all under the same guise of Kratom. I mean, they're selling seven hydroxy and kratom extracts right next to five-hour energy drinks. You know, these are vastly different prop products than Kratom. So it's interesting, it's scary.

Jordan : 6:24

Well, Jordan, I'll tell you. When I reached out to you last week, well, I reached out to you out of curiosity, but then we found out that one of my friends, the husband was in recovery for heroin addiction. Has been going out to the trunk and he was buying a brand. And and before she even told me, when she told me it was capsules, I was like, it's 7-0. But I went to the smoke shop with her and I researched it throughout the day. And I asked both the smoke shop employees, I said, So what are people buying this for? What is this for? Neither one of them knew and they're selling it. Yeah, and I was like, Yeah, this is fucked up. And uh it is and that's what created the urgency. So thank you for making this happen. So, can you talk about how Kratom like you said that you were crying? I don't know if that was, I would just love some clarification. Was it the Kratom activation or was it the relief of like, oh, I found something that will help me? Like, what did that look like? And then how does Kratom interact in your body?

Bobbie Malatesta: 7:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. So I started crying because I felt hopeful over. I mean, so many years just hit me all at once. Like, what have I been doing? I've been stealing myself again for the first time in so many years. And that was a long, long time since I felt like myself. Like, oh my gosh, I'm back, I'm back to me. And that was the craziest thing. So Kratom works in many different ways in in your brain. It works on your serotinergic, dopaminergic, androgenergic, and your adenosine receptor. So there's many different pathways that Kratom is affecting all at once that traditional opioids don't do. Like a lot of people will say, oh, Kratom's an opioid, but opioids don't activate those pathways. They're going to opioid receptors. And if I go back to 700H real quick, the reason why people are having such trouble with 7OH and you're they're going back to addictive behaviors because 7OH is strictly targeting opioid receptors and it's binding to the opioid receptor so tightly and so strongly, like it's like between 60 and 70 times stronger the binding affinity than normal kratom powder. So kratom binds to opioid receptors, but it does so very, very gently. It like kind of just hugs the receptors. It it it it um it's enough that it can stop withdrawal or it can stop these certain sort of behaviors, but it doesn't penetrate the receptor so strongly. Like it's the difference between a hug and a chokehold, is the best way I can explain it for people to understand. And but there's many different pathways in in the brain that Kratom is is activating and can help. That's why so many people can it can give people um energy or mental clarity, or it can get people off of heroin. It's very, very versatile plant for sure. I don't recommend Kratom for everyone, but for the people that need it, it can be everything.

Jordan : 9:23

So you said, and I'm sorry, we got a little broken up. So if I have you repeat yourself, and some of the language you just used was new to me. So you said, I thought I heard you say like dopamareceptor, like dopamine. Is that what you mean? And say when you were listing the receptor.

Bobbie Malatesta: 9:41

So basically, what what I was saying is that Kratum affects many different parts of the brain that traditional opioids don't do. Kratum gently binds to mute opioid receptors, like it gently hugs it, while traditional opioids do like a chokehold, basically, and that's what 7-hydroxy is doing. But kratom also affects your serotonergic, your dopaminergic, angi-ergic, and your adenosine receptors, which traditional opioids don't do. That's why Kratom has such balance and nuance um effects, because instead of targeting one part of the brain so much, it's kind of spread out, and that's why a lot of people can say, Oh, I can I feel normal again, like I'm not like super high, I'm not anything like that. It's it it just it elevates your mood to a point where you can have a better, more positive outlook on life.

Jordan : 10:36

Okay, thank you. That that helps. So, how do people know what is and and and if anyone all right, I guess I gotta back up a little.

Bobbie Malatesta: 10:48

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Jordan : 10:49

So, in my head, again, going through the journey of what is all this stuff about, in my head, I had the way I visualize this was if I took a heroin addict off, like the visual was there's a heroin addict on the street with a needle in his arm, and he moves to Kratom, and I think that's a win. And what that what I'm intimidated by about selling Kratom front of house is I didn't want to turn them the other way. So thank you for calling out the fact that you don't recommend it for everyone. I don't want to be the gateway into any of it, quite frankly. Of course, as my recovery evolves, I'm starting to learn that all things aren't equal, all bodies aren't equal. So I I appreciate what you're saying with that. Yeah, of course. How do people know other than if they are Kratom and they're looking for Kratom solutions, they need to find you. So tell everybody the name of your company first because you probably ship, right? Do you ship?

Bobbie Malatesta: 11:46

Yes, yeah, we ship to all the uh le legal states. Uh, we're called New Hope Botanicals. Uh, we're based out of Southern Cal California. I have an amazing uh staff, and we all use Kratom here, which is kind of cool. That's like the one prerequisite to work here. You know, we don't care about your background, nothing like that. Just uh, you know, it's funny. That's one of the the questions on the service on the application. Do you take Kratom? You know, yeah. So yeah, newhobotanicals.com is is where you can find us. And when when you were saying too, you don't want it to be a gateway, that's why I think having education is so perfect. Like sometimes people come into our shop and we'll tell them, like, yeah, I don't think you're a good fit for this. Like, like, even though they they want Kratom, you know, because it's all about how it's marketed and who it's marketed to. I think that's why so there are some very vocal anti-kratom people because they were saying, like, oh, this was sold to me as a natural and energy supplement, which technically it actually is. However, you need to go in depth with more people, like, okay, if you're using this for energy, it has to be extremely low dose, and you have to like don't use it every single day. You know, that that is something that most people will never they they don't get told that, and that's why proper late labeling is so important. And also, if you walk into a lot of convenience stores, you'll see extremely powerful Kratom extracts, which are way stronger than the Kratom found in nature, sold right next to a five hour hour energy drink. You know, it's just the it's the public perception because Kratom, uh how um I think it's an amazing tool, it saved my life. There's so many people out there that swear Kratom gave them their life back, but you have to be real about the risks versus the reward ratio. Someone has you know, it has no issues whatsoever, and they're just taking Kratom to take Kratom is probably not the best choice. But for someone who is in chronic pain that the medical system turned their back on, or a veteran with PTSD, or someone like myself in my situation, or someone who has severe depression, you know, when you're you see these big pharma commercials, that half the commercial is just these crazy, crazy side effects, you know. Then yeah, Kratom might be a better solution for you. But the average Joe Schmo walking the street doesn't need it, it's a very powerful plant, it's a it's a powerful plant and has the power to change lives for the most part good. There's some that it has changed for for the worse, but it's very small in in comparison.

Jordan : 14:22

Thank you. Yeah, and actually people wanting to not fall into big pharma's loopholes and bullshit, is why I actually brought my first case in. Was because and it was I see Lalo, I love they're so awesome, but Mike 9 is one of the brands that I use for the drinks. And I've drank in cans of theirs for when I'm achy and ick, and it does. It's once in a blue moon, I have not felt addicted to it. I, you know, like I use it for when my body is. I don't want to take a freaking hydrocodone or a you know, those kinds of things. So personally I could see the value, but then I've also like lost a customer that started with Kava, moved to Kratom, and and hasn't been back because I think he was sourcing other, like from what I heard through the grapevine, sourcing other things. Now it could have been 7-0, it could have been too much creative. I don't know what it was, which is part of why I'm like, shit, I gotta get responsible about this and be able to understand.

Bobbie Malatesta: 15:30

Yeah.

Jordan : 15:31

Can you talk a little about do you sell like there's white and green and red? Are those the good ones?

Bobbie Malatesta: 15:39

Or yeah, so a lot of people get very confused about all these different strains. They'll go onto these websites that list a hundred different strains. I'm actually it's so funny you asked this because I'm publishing a book about this next week. Um, they'll go to these websites that list a hundred different types of kratom, claiming they they'll all do different things. That is 100% marketing. The truth is there's one kratom, there's one crit kratom tree, but depending on where the leaf is in its life cycle and especially the drying process post-harvest can change it different colors, and everyone is super subjective from person to person. They'll say white for flight, then they'll say green for in-between and red for bed. However, you know, 30% of our clients take the white for nighttime, 30% of our clients take the red because it gives them a big um energy boost. Kratom isn't a one size fits all. And when I say strains, I'm saying like you'll read online green mingle, green bali, green malay, green tie. That and it they'll say this if you take green tie, you'll get this specific result. If you take green bali, you'll get this specific result. That is 100 percent mark marketing because everyone is different. It's like saying, like, which which coffee is gonna give you a pep in your step. You know, it's all coffee. Like, what matters is matragenine, just like caffeine matters to coffee. But like, here's some examples like we'll talk about green tie. Thailand banned Kratom for export uh in 1943 and just released the ban four years ago. No Kratom in the United States is actually from T Thailand, it's not Green Malay banned Kratom in 1952 for export, and it's still in effect to right now. There's no green Malay in the country, there's no Kratom for Malaysia, everything comes from from Indonesia, and it all comes from uh Borneo and it all comes from West Kalimantan. So it's basically they're just putting a bunch of different labels on different batches to say we we have all those on our website. We have green bali, but no bali grows, no kratom grows on the island of Bali. That's it. It I was just in Indonesia. There's no Kratom there, you know. And I was talking to suppliers, and we a lot of American vendors will will sell that stuff because that's what it comes labeled as from the suppliers, because that's what the American market expects. They expect all these strains and all these uniqueness while 95% of it just isn't true, it's not factual.

Jordan : 18:13

And how are people getting their information? Because this is fascinating to me, too. Is there's no commercials on TV or ads, or right? Like, especially because it's legal in some places and not. Is it just all word of mouth the the Kratom spread?

Bobbie Malatesta: 18:30

Yeah, so I mean, we originally think that Kratom came to the United States when soldiers came back from from the Vietnam War because 20% of all soldiers were addicted to to heroin, you know, to escape the the hellish conditions of war. And we would it's it's theorized that the friendly locals there that were supporting the soldiers saw them in withdrawal and gave them kratom, and they brought it back to to America with them. Uh another possible explanation was when people from Southeast Asia migrated to the the states, they brought part of their culture with them. Kratom is extremely entrenched in South Asian culture and in Malaysia and Thailand and in Indonesia. Like an example of why Kratom became banned in Thailand because it was still under British colonial rule. They banned Kratom in 1952, and the colonial rule stopped in 1957, so they were losing control in 1952, so they started banning local traditions, and Kratom was one of those local traditions that got banned in Malaysia. Kratom people always take these Kratom bans on face value, they don't really understand the nuances. And like I said, Kratom did get banned in Malaysia in 1952. That's because the British were losing control, they they totally lost control in 1952, so they started banning local traditions, and Kratom was one of those traditions. They started not let letting people speak their native language in certain situations. So same thing in Thailand happened in when Kratom got banned in 1943. That's because the government was controlling the opium trade, and Kratom was cutting into their opium tax by a massive, a massive margin. So they're like, Nope, not gonna have that anymore. And you know, so many Thai historians have even come to the table now. I'm going to Thailand like relatively soon to talk to to one of these guys, and they're saying, Yeah, it was 100% because of of the opium trade, but people were still using crit kratom through all that time, all that time. Wow. Yeah.

Jordan : 20:43

Do you have advice for people then who are looking? Well remind me, I have a very serious question to ask you too. So advice for people, it's interesting by the way, all that history. But if if they want to explore Kratom, what are some good resources, or how do they look to not get caught in all this? I I don't even know the right word, bullshit, really. The lack and and how do they find the truth?

Bobbie Malatesta: 21:16

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say all of it is is like bullshit. I think a lot of it is exaggerations, you know. But the American Kratom Association is a great place to to get real science and info. Kratomanswers.org is a great resource. My TikTok page, I feel like, is a pretty good resource, Kratom Ninja, K-R-A-T-O-M. Also, if you're really nerdy, Dr. Jack Henningfield's eight-factor analysis is a great one. He's from Thomas, no, he's from uh John Hopkins, but all the information from John Hopkins School of Medicine, the surveys done, Dr. Oliver Grundman, Dr. Christopher McCurdy. If you want more information on the wrongful death suits, I would say Dr. Marilyn Hustis, who's probably the most respected toxicologist in the country, she she actually took on a lot of the wrongful death cases that were labeled only Kratom. And she was able to retest the blood vials, and they all came back for novel psychoactive substances not detectable on standard tests. And when she actually requested more blood vials, they magically just disappeared. No more blood vials became available. Dr. Jane Babin is probably the best researcher I've seen on causation does not equal correlation, or I don't know if that's backwards. You know, just because someone died someone died with kratom in their system doesn't mean that they died from kratom. I'm not saying no one's ever died from kratom because people have died from water toxicity, you know, people have died from peanuts, people, a lot of people die from from caffeine. However, I've never seen one case that has actually been like, okay, this was just kratom. There's so much more. I mean, you know, three people that there was a guy that committed suicide, unfortunately, with a gunshot wound, and he had kratom in his system, but they labeled that the cause of death. It was a kratom-associated death, not the blunt force trauma, or you know, people have been in car accidents with kratom in their system. One guy was even in a parachuting accident and Kratom was in his system. I actually had one of my good friends, she was labeled a Kratom death, and she was here locally. Like I knew her, I saw her every single day. However, she was chewing fentanyl patches, she was drinking almost half a bottle of liquor a day. Even her family was like, This isn't right, Kratom's not what killed her. You know, Kratom was what was helping her for a while, but then she started, you know, doing other stuff as well. So there's a lot of info out there. There's a lot of info. You just kind of have to dig through the weeds to to really find it.

Jordan : 23:56

And and you do an amazing job on your TikTok page. I use it as a resource all the time. Like I said, I could I could binge on you and you figured out TikTok too. How to make it engaging, how to make it informative, like how to talk the language. When I first started watching you, and you could say seven my my my my dragony, yeah, my tragedy. I'm like, how is he doing all these big words? Um you you answered kind of my question. So I had interviewed a lady who was convinced that her son OD'd on Kratom, and you kind of answered that already. That was my serious question. And it she's really advocating because they called it Kratom-related deaths in in the places in Florida. And I think Florida's getting the most attention because there's the most common Kratom bars down there. It's it's more out loud. I feel like people aren't noticing in the smoke shops. It's it's it's blowing my mind, and I'm trying to raise awareness in our community because it's the same smoke shops that are probably selling weed behind the counter to the kids and all the things, right? So it kind of all goes together. So do you foresee with what you know? Because I I get the sense you're involved in the legislator. Okay, I just can't talk at all. Pay attention to the laws and all of that. Kratoms, what, legal in like 10 or 12 states right now?

Bobbie Malatesta: 25:32

Oh, so it's uh illegal, it was illegal in six for a very, very long time. Now it's illegal in seven. Like Louisiana just passed, just passed legislation not too long ago, but it's because lawmakers are confusing seven hydroxy with normal Kratom. And you know, seven hydroxy is a completely different beast. I I I I would say I'm not saying it doesn't have therapeutic value, you know, down the road, especially in like a medical setting. However, the companies that make seven hydroxies they don't want to take the 10 years it takes to get a new drug to the market and spend the billions and billions of dollars. They would rather just sell it under the guise of Kratom now and make millions. I mean, I think they're profiting probably 8 million per week now, maybe 10 million per per per week, pro like profiting. And you know, it's profiting off of people's suffering. I mean, I I get so many messages from 70H companies, please sell our products, please sell our products. And I just tell them kiss my fat ass. Like every time I just I just can't do it. I I can't morally do it. I sleep well at night being a Kratom vendor, I would never sleep well at night being a seven hydroxy dealer. Is I, you know, there's a difference between being a dealer and a vendor, in in my opinion. But yeah, if I could go back to the the mom you were talking about real quick, and I mean no disrespect to any person that's lost a child, that's not my intention whatsoever. I mean, I've I've lost met many friends to to substances, but but I've always wanted to ask the question is like there's never been a public health crisis from natural kratom in Southeast Asia. There's never been one death in Southeast Asia from Kratom, and Kratom's been used for a thousand years going back to the Dyak tribe. I just I want to know, does Kratom automatically become deadly once it crosses the border into um America? That's just one question that I have. Or is it the fact that they're making these products that say Kratom, but they're they're not, they're taking Kratom out of its natural form, they're doing stuff to the plant that never nature never intended it to be. An example would be the FDA counts nine deaths in Sweden as Kratom deaths. There was a product called Krypton, where a company, Kratom Company, I should I'm saying that in quotes because they're just not good people. They they mix Odes methyltramadol into the Kratom, and nine people died. And Odes methyltramadol is an extremely powerful deadly opioid. And but this has been proven that Odes methyltramadol was mixed in, and the FDA still counts these as nine Kratom deaths, you know. And Kratom is always the low hang hanging fruit, always, always, always. Like, for example, the the latest poison control data said that there was 1117 calls that were Kratom that that were for Kratom. But people don't realize, like, so many people underreport what they're actually doing. Like, if you're in a situation like with your mom's there and you're freaking out, like you're overdosing, it's like, oh yeah, I took Kratom, it I bought it at the store. You know, it's so much easier to say than I was doing fentanyl or I was doing cocaine or all that type of stuff, and that's what people don't re realize. But also, if you just look at the the data at itself, you know, there's 20 million Kratom users in the United States. If there was 1,117 calls, that means you have a better chance of getting struck by lightning because that's it was like one in 17,000 if it's out of 20 million, but getting struck by lightning is one out of 15,300. Like these are things are much scarier in headlines when there's not context in in involved, you know, they'll be like, Oh, Kratom hospitalizations are on the rise. Numbers are much scarier without context, and that's what people don't want to actually talk about. They'll just take a headline and they'll run with it. Like, oh, Kratom hospitalizations are on the rise. However, if you talk to all the Kratom experts, these doctors that all they do is study Kratom, like, yes, people are going, but they're going for rapid heart rate, they're going for dizziness, they're going for it's the exact opposite. It of what we see from like Kratom, or they'll go for like blood pressure issues, and all these things can happen with caffeine. You know, that's why people go to the hospital for caffeine because Kratom does have stimulant-like properties to it. But the the media makes it seem like people are coming in with blue lips or not breathing. You know, kratom doesn't activate the rest in two beta pathway in the brain, which is what causes respiratory depression from from from opioids. It can't be done. It can't be done. Study after study, so many rat studies giving giving rats 400 times the amount that a person could reasonably consume. And all of them got really groggy but woke back up, you know? That that that's the thing that people don't realize, and that's why Kratom is such a valuable tool. That I'll say it, I'll say it a million times. I don't recommend it for everyone, but like my channel is to educate it for the people that truly need it.

Jordan : 30:54

So you can't OD on Kratom. Is that a true statement?

Bobbie Malatesta: 30:58

Well, so it depends on what you mean by by OD. What we mean by O D what respiratory depression, no.

Jordan : 31:07

Is that what it is when you OD from heroin? Is it respiratory depression?

Bobbie Malatesta: 31:12

Yes, you actually, yeah, you stop breathing breathing. That that that's what happens, and it's the the the rest in two beta pathway in the brain is what kratom doesn't cause. That's what when people get respiratory depression from opioids, they they they stop breathing, but kratom has been proven that doesn't happen. However, with 70H, respiratory depression is possible. Dr. Chris McCurdy from the University of Florida, who I flew out to his lab and I interviewed him for about two hours, he was saying how in rats they did studies where it's called 7-hydroxy versus metragenine, which is kratom, it's bi-directional breathing in rats, is what the study was called because huge doses of mitragenine actually increased the breathing of the rats. Seven hydroxy actually decreased the breathing of the rats, and that was they were able to reverse those effects with Narcan, basically.

Jordan : 32:11

That was my question. I wrote down Narcan. So 7-0 was reversed with Narcan because the symptom was there to reverse. Yes, Kratom Narcan wouldn't work because you're not going to be in that state because Kratom doesn't create that state.

Bobbie Malatesta: 32:29

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It in metrogenine, it increased the breathing. And with seven hydroxy, it caused respiratory depression. And when you have two products labeled Kratom, like that's that's the really, really scary part that most people just don't understand. And again, many people think I'm so anti-70H, I'm just anti-lying to people like that because people need to make informed decisions for for for for themselves. And when you're giving people wrong information, they can't make informed decisions. And that's what really is irritating to me.

Jordan : 33:03

Well, I appreciate you informing me because I've been of the school from the one guest, you know, having the fear when she told me that there was over 700 Kratom-related deaths. I've been invoking fear in me and my guests. Like, stay away from it. Like, I'll only sell my TR9, just the cans, because I feel like that's just right. And because I have enough experience now with it myself. But now I'm only as good as the information I have, right? So you're giving me more information to at least share this to speak a little bit more educated. Cause I would have because of you, I knew there was danger. Like to me, danger was 7-0. I don't like the tactics to get it into my store that I've experienced. Um it's just scary. Like I'm trying to think of a big gas station chain out your way. So imagine walking in, because this just happened in our biggest one of our biggest chains. It says create 'em. It wasn't even in a case the first month. It's on the counter, so you could just reach it. It wasn't secure, and it was seven ounces. And I I asked the cashiers, I'm like, what is this? I don't know. $55 for like eight tablets. I said, so they check the age verification on it. And I said, All right, well, I'm gonna see how many packets of this I could steal and walk out with because age verification buttons don't mean shit if the kids are coming in and taking it right off the counter. So now there's now they're in a box, but the top of the box says Kratom. Yeah, and I'm like, this ain't Kratom. And the poor employees, like, I love the employees, and it's I know it's not them. Their district manager is even sober and he's against it, but it's a corporate freaking thing, which surprises me that corporate wouldn't be doing more due diligence. No matter corporate's usually a little bit more structured from my experience and would stay off of the fence. That I'm fucking livid about this being accessible.

Bobbie Malatesta: 35:21

Yeah, it it's it's crazy. You know, even I always tell people there's three different products there's there's regular Kratom, which is just the powder and the leaves. The only product you can consider real Kratom is dried kratom powder or fresh kratom leaves. That's the only thing. Then you have kratom extracts, which are a totally different product. It's just like if you think of regular Kratom as coffee, then extracts are caffeine pills. No one would ever say that caffeine pills and coffee are the same product, they're they're not, they're completely different. Most people don't have issues drinking coffee. But when you hear of people having serious issues with caffeine, man went to the hospital from caffeine, it's not because he drank a bunch of coffee, it's because he was doing caffeine powder or because he was doing caffeine pills and it's so concentrated and he did more than he's supposed to. And then you have seven hydroxy, which is like meth, basically. Like they're it's you know, that they're all stimulants, yes, but they're very, very, very, very different. And again, I I have to say it every time. I I don't want to make it seem like seven hydroxy is the is the devil, but the way that they're presenting it and the way that there's access to it is, and the way that they're lying to it, it's it could be amazing in like a hospital setting for end-of-life care for people in extreme pain under like the right settings, but like you're literally handing people a loaded gun. Like these people that you were talking about at the at this at the gas station, they don't know what they're doing, they're just told to sell it, you know. And the same thing with smoke shops, they're just it's kratom, it's better, it's faster, it's stronger. You know, where where I go, you know, I went to Indonesia where where they use Kratom for a thousand years, and they're like, no, nature made it better. Let's go slower, you know, let's go back to what actually we've been using for so long. You know, people in in Indonesia are completely against seven hydroxy. When I went to Indonesia and I got picked up by my guide, the first question he is is he said is what do you think about seven hydroxy in in America? You know, I was like, it's not good, it's not good. So it's it's making a worldwide impact. And these people, even the people that own the companies, like I've read their leaked eat their leaked info, like through email saying we created a monster, like they they they know what they did, you know, and they'll they'll always say, Oh, but overdoses are down by 24% because of 7 hydroxy. They're they're comparing it to COVID data. Like, yes, of course, more people overdose during COVID because we're all lacked locked inside, we were forced to wear masks, you couldn't hug your family, you couldn't do any of that type of stuff. So, of course, overdoses were were going to be up back then. Um, it's just yeah, most people haven't spent as much time in the Kratom world as I have, they haven't really educated themselves on the nuances. You know, I just released a book, it's called The Truth About Kratom, Lifesaving Plant or Botanical Menace, where it's so many pay pages in A through Z, The Wrongful Deaths, like everything you could imagine in one book. It's that book. And, you know, just I always try to put myself in the shoes of people that don't know about Kratom, that are just they're trying to learn about it, and I'm trying to steer them in the right direction. If this is a good fit for you or if it isn't a good fit for you, you know, sales aren't everything, people always come first, and that's what I feel like seven hydroxy companies have forgotten.

Jordan : 38:47

For sure. Jordan, is there anything that I haven't asked out of curiosity that you want to make sure that the listeners know and hear from you?

Bobbie Malatesta: 38:57

No, I I just think that seven, I mean, I think that Kratom is a life-saving plant. I think it's very misunderstood, and in some ways it's reefer madness, like all over again. It's kind of what like happened to Kava in the 1990s, as I'm sure you're you're aware. I I went to Fiji to source Kava back in 2019, and you know, I was talking to a lot of suppliers over there, and they're going through the same thing. They went through the same thing the creative industry is going through now. Uh like eventually it all got worked out. But I mean, there's still BS about Kava saying it causes liver damage, all that type of stuff, you know. And I'm sure you are very well aware that that the national institute, not not that the National Institute of Drug Abuse said the the chance of liver damage from Kava was one in one million, you know. It's yeah, it's like you have to put things in in perspective. But I think Kratom's a life-saving plant for the people that that need it. I just think it's very misunderstood. And in I always say tell people Kratom is like a hammer, it could build you a beautiful home or you could hit yourself in the thumb. You know, those are it's the same tool, it's just how you use the the tool for most people. It's a in myself, like myself that were in in substance use disorder for a long time, it's it's an amazing tool that can help them gain stability for some people in substance use disorder, a very small percentage. It they can run with it in the wrong way.

Jordan : 40:22

So is it does it uh do this? You when you said that I started thinking about suboxin. Like, how would you compare Kratom to Suboxen? Like, same job, different road, like same destination.

Bobbie Malatesta: 40:38

Yes, I I would say, you know, because suboxin has been a life-saving medication for a lot of people, however, there are side effects of it. Some people don't like it, some people love being on suboxin. It kind of just depends. I would say Kratom is much gentler than suboxin. I I I I was on suboxin and I felt like a zombie, you know. I had some teeth issues with kratom, nothing like that has ever really happened to me. I just feel normal. I I'm physically dependent on Kratom, but that's a huge different than huge difference than being in addiction, you know. A lot of people are are dependent on things, but they're not addicted to it. Like my mother-in-law takes antidepressants, never done a drug in her life. But if she misses her dose of antidepressants, she does not feel well at all. And it's not pretty to see. The same thing can happen with Kratom. However, the actual people of getting withdrawals from Kratom is relatively low compared to the general pop population of people that take Kratom. Like typically less than 10% of people experience withdrawals. But in that 10% of people, some people experience severe withdrawals, like severe withdrawals. However, for most, they're mild to moderate. The the statistics, the data looks a lot different if you're looking at extracts. But again, those are a completely different product, you know. Like we sell some extracts, but we try to stay people away from it. The only reason we carry that is because some people have gut issues and can't consume the powder. So doing an extract for them is just um easier, but we try to stay try try to not let people go down that road for the most part. There's there's always exceptions to the rule, however, when it comes to Kratom, the rule should just be like stick to pure leaf powder, don't mess with any other stuff, you know.

Jordan : 42:20

Yeah, the powder. So the first time I took it, I didn't realize the dosing at all. This is my ignorance. I took the powder to see what it was all about, and I measured it out like it was protein powder for a chocolate shake. I thought it was gonna taste my shake. Oh, it was horrendous, and my stomach hurt for days.

Bobbie Malatesta: 42:43

Oh, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that's yeah, that see, that's one of the things with Kratom I love too, because it has built-in defense mechanisms. If you take too much kratom, you're gonna throw up and you're gonna get something called the wobbles where you get really, really, really dizzy and you don't feel good. But if you take too much opioids, you know, you might not make it. So that's why I think Kratom is is is a good tool for most some people. Some people, I should say. I don't mean to say most people, because most people don't have a need for Kratom, but for the people that do, it's very niche, but it's very life-saving within that niche.

Jordan : 43:19

Yeah. Well, I tell you, you are my people, you are open-minded, you're informative, you're passionate, and I really appreciate all that about you, Jordan. You're helping me and my audience more than I can explain. Like, who's the guru on Kratom? It was you. It was like hands down, and you don't need the doctor before after your name, but you have gathered all this information, and the way that you share it is amazing because it could be received in a really good way. Oh, thank you. You taking the time, buddy. It means the world to me.

Bobbie Malatesta: 43:53

Yeah, of course. I'll I'll send you a copy of my my my my book. I have a PDF version right now, it's totally free. And then we're gonna have like actual hard copies that I'll be selling on Amazon, but I'll send you one for free, the hard copy, just so you have it and you can read it in in your spare time.

Jordan : 44:11

That sounds good. And uh we'll look at getting some in the store to sell so people can have access to it too.

Bobbie Malatesta: 44:16

Oh, that'd be cool. Thank you so much.

Jordan : 44:18

Yeah, yeah. All right, well, I can't promise you won't ever hear from me again, but I have to be re in here.

Bobbie Malatesta: 44:25

Yeah, we we we just scratched the surface. There's so much more. So if you want me back again, I can definitely do that, so it's no problem.

Jordan : 44:33

Get things started.